Curse

Moloch Vein · Aug 14, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

It has been my feeling for some time that the MM build thinking has stagnated, and that Minion-Mastery is something people often prefer to leave in their capable heroes' hands. On one hand, we have the old and comparatively ineffective N/Mo builds. On the other, we have the new and in most cases highly effective N/D Mystic-based builds. Apart from that we have some true misfits.

This is the latest such misfit. I created it in the belief that the N/P combination could see more general PvE use, but as a matter of fact, it works quite well in AB. It is a significantly more demanding build to run for the player, and enforces a more active play style.

Necromancer/Paragon

Death Magic 12+1+3
Command 10
Soul Reaping 8+2
Motivation 2

[skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill][skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill][skill]Order Of Undeath[/skill][skill]"Go For The Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Blood Of The Master[/skill][skill]Leader's Zeal[/skill][skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill]

Equipment:

As preferred. I like a Furious Spear of Defense with a +5E inscription, and a Command Shield of Fortitude with a Mastery inscription. If you want more energy, by all means change in a focus, but necromancers are rarely able to enjoy an unbuffed armor rating of 81.

Usage:

While moving yourself and your minions, make use of "Fall Back!" as needed. This will heal your minions and help counter their natural health degeneration.

As you enter combat, throw a BotM while the fiends get into attack range. As they have locked targets, hit OoU. Wait for health to drop sufficiently, and shout "Never Surrender!" immediately followed by Leader's Comfort. Unless you are the victim of some hex, use your weapon, even if it won't do any damage. You want to build up adrenaline for "Go For The Eyes!", which should be used immediately after a casting of OoU for a pretty solid spike.

Energy management is done by way of Leader's Zeal and natural Soul Reaping. While many people will question why not Signet of Lost Souls is used - after all, LZ only returns 4 energy and has a longer recharge - well, this is certainly an alternative. However, LZ can be used at any time - such as after the fight, with no enemies available, and 5 energy short of a Fiend - and since you have your ranged minions standing close to you, you're getting the full benefit of your castings. The same goes for Leader's Comfort, which almost can't help to provide at least 100 health even at 0 Leadership.

Weaknesses:

This isn't a very fragile build, but it would be a lie to say it can measure up with an N/D build based on Mystic Regeneration. It takes a lot of attention to run this build successfully.
This build has no condition removal and is practically unable to bring hex removal, however few minion masters pack any hex removal.
Shout/Chant hating will hurt this build but not disable it completely.

Strengths:

This build uses zero enchantment spells and is thus immune to enchantment hate.
Four of the skills are impossible to interrupt, one is immune to attacks interrupting spells and two cast in one second.
The build is extremely mobile for an MM build, and provides additional nice party-wide buffs.
As all Order of Undeath-based builds it does heavy damage, but adding "Go For The Eyes!" delivers even more punching power.

Variants:

There are a few obvious variants. As I see it, the key skills are "Fall Back!" and Leader's Comfort. The skill most easily dismissed is "Go For The Eyes!", but really, how often do we get the chance to use our adrenaline?

As noted Signet of Lost Souls can replace Leader's Zeal.
"Go For The Eyes!" can be replaced by Bone Horrors, even Bone Minions who will still get the full benefit of OoU and serve as energy batteries, or Vampiric Horrors for the faint of heart.
In fact, even the elite can be replaced, if you don't like doing damage. If you enjoy insane micromanaging, bring Jagged Bones. I wouldn't recommend Aura of the Lich, though.

Comments, flames, criticism and shameless flattery are all appreciated.

Kindly, Moloch

Wyler_Clan · Aug 14, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Interesting idea, but I have concerns about bringing a Necro (primarily a back liner) to the midline position, given that the Necro has weaker armour then a paragon. This would be necessary to have the shouts effect the minions, but puts the Necro closer to harms path.

ZenRgy · Aug 14, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyler_Clan

Interesting idea, but I have concerns about bringing a Necro (primarily a back liner) to the midline position, given that the Necro has weaker armour then a paragon. This would be necessary to have the shouts effect the minions, but puts the Necro closer to harms path.

Offensive necros are midline, not backline. Just because you're throwing spears around doesn't make you any more vulnerable than standing there with a stave, spamming spells.

It seems solid, seen the concept before, maybe I'll try it out some time.

Moloch Vein · Aug 14, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

The clear weakness of this build idea is that an AoE nuker can inflict massive damage on you and your minions together, if you do not pay attention.

In order to get full benefit from Leader's Zeal (which, really, you shouldn't have to use so often while in battle) you must practically stand in the minion mob, which makes you a very tempting target. And, this build can't survive that. An N/D MM build at full strength can simply shake off a Fire Storm or something similar if needed. Thus you need to be aware of that problem and, when you face that type of resistance, engage and move a little back when your fiends have locked aggro.

Leader's Comfort and "Go For The Eyes!" both affect within earshot, which is about a full aggro bubble. (Note, of course, that "Never Surrender!" does not affect the minions at all.) This means you can both heal yourself, your minions and issue commands successfully from a slightly retracted position.

Also... I would very much like to hear the exact definition of "frontline", "midline" and "backline". If I'm correct, front is melee, mid is ranged/spellcaster, back is healer. Am I mistaken?

Toutatis · Aug 15, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

This looks like a very interesting build concept... Definitely something for me to add to my "to try" list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Also... I would very much like to hear the exact definition of "frontline", "midline" and "backline". If I'm correct, front is melee, mid is ranged/spellcaster, back is healer. Am I mistaken?

That's more or less correct, from my point of view. Exact definitions of what the lines contain change depending on a player's point of view and gaming experiences, but in general you'll find tanks in the frontline and healers on the backline. The midline usually consists of utility professions who help harass or shut down the enemy, deal extra damage, or intercept and destroy any enemies that manage to get past the frontline. Some professions can change their lines depending on what's needed of them at the time (a rit, for example, would normally play midline until the monks need a hand, at which point the rit can join the backline and help with the healing; while the sin lives on the knife-edge between midline and frontline). Though I'm no expert and this is more of a question for one of the more team-based strategic forums.

Lourens · Aug 15, 2007, 06:57 AM // 06:57

GoT doesnt improve ur dmg output if u use it with OoU as thats just +17 and the critical hit isnt armor ignoring and thus not a spike

Moloch Vein · Aug 15, 2007, 08:55 AM // 08:55

That's another thing. Define "spike". I've seen the term used for just about everything. I use it for "a sudden and time-limited increase in the damage output." I've never heard that a "spike" must be armor-ignoring, or that it necessarily must kill the target.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Spike

Obviously, though, GFTY does improve your damage output. The critical hit does more damage than a regular hit. Throwing the GFTY directly after OoU is done to create a sudden rise ("spike...?") in damage.

Toutatis · Aug 16, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

A spike doesn't have to be armor ignoring. A spike is a coordinated attack or sequence of attacks, often done by several team members, that causes a very large amount of damage to a single target in a very short amount of time (the idea being to do more damage than the enemy healers can immediately patch up). Dealing armor ignoring damage or having a certain degree of armor penetration is a plus in these circumstances, but not really necessary.

Cebe · Aug 16, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Would a heal from the Death Magic line, such as [wiki]Taste of Pain[/wiki] or [wiki]Soul Feast[/wiki] be better than Leader's Comfort as a necro cannot put any points into Leadership? Or even using Vampiric Horros instead of Leader's Comfort so as to counter some of the health lost from OoU?

glountz · Aug 16, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Interesting build but very fragile IMHO.
In AB, any sin comboing you will kill you and turn your minions against your buddies. And I don't speak about Verata.
One of the biggest issue I see also is at the beginning when you have to build your army.
With only one minion spell and BoTM which, on the contrary to the AoTL MM will punish you severely, I find this build really fragile. "Never surrender", according to the description doesn't work on Minions but only party members.
On the other hand it boosts damage.
But as AB you can choose teamates, wouldn't be more interesting to go full death and take a para?

Bobby Sox · Aug 16, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

(Note, of course, that "Never Surrender!" does not affect the minions at all.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

"Never surrender", according to the description doesn't work on Minions but only party members.

When I saw this, I had to post to correct you. As you said glountz, "Never Surrender!" DOES say party members, not allies, in it's description. However, I can assure you that it works (and always has) on allies. Friendly NPCs, minions, and the other team members in alliance battles are all affected by this shout.

Several paragon shouts have this sort of mistake in their descriptions. "The Power is Yours!," for example, states that it gives party members energy, while it actually affects all allies within earshot.

Longasc · Aug 16, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

You want to build up adrenaline for "Go For The Eyes!", which should be used immediately after a casting of OoU for a pretty solid spike.

I will refrain from commenting on more, it is too odd and i do not want to bash it right away.

But does GFTE affect minions, too?
Do not say what you think, did anyone test this???

Moloch Vein · Aug 16, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Re: Celestial, Glountz, Bobby, Longasc:

Celestial:

Yes, Taste of Pain is conceivable, but it is conditional in that it requires your target to drop below 50%, and you can't control exactly who the fiends hit. Putting it this way, if the targets can't deal with the damage, they drop FAST.

Soul Feast is also conditional in that it requires a corpse, and counteracts the idea of MMing which is to raise corpses.

While it is absolutely correct that a necromancer can't spec in Leadership that doesn't make Leader's Comfort a bad heal; far from it. It does scale with the number of minions you control, thus more minions = more hurt to you from Oou = more heal from LC. With ten minions you'll be healed for 30+(10*11), which is the maximum for LC anyway. Assuming you do have ten fiends, all your fiends hit with every attack and all your fiends are in weapons range at the moment you cast OoU and for the entire 5 seconds duration (highly unlikely) they will hit targets:

5/1.9*10 times ~ 26.3 times

Assuming you run max health 400, that's

26.3*8 ~ 211 damage

This means a deficit in heal of 71. If "Never Surrender!" is up, the deficit is 31. Note that the situation I described will practically never occur.

Glountz:

I acknowledge the fact that this build is not as damage-resistant as an N/D Heir-type build. However, many builds can be spiked by one class or the other, and that doesn't make them useless.

This build can't hope to out-tank an assassin spike while the minions chew your foe to pieces. It requires attention on your part - noticing which foes come close and taking steps against them. It does, however, have a running skill, and if the marauder manages to get into range of your army and you have the time to hit your Order, he will be very sorry indeed. The potential damage output from one cast of Order of Undeath is above 1000 hit points, and that's not counting GFTY.

N/D Lich is by no means without counters. Enchantment removal/enchantment hate cripples the build. A touch ranger can eat you for breakfast. It's a pick-your-poison proposal.

As for the beginning stage, there really isn't as much of a problem as you may think. Unlike the N/D, I don't have to worry about the energy cost of maintaining 30e worth of enchantments. Sure, two Fiends will practically empty my energy bar, but that's the beauty of Alliance Battles, and of many PvE areas as well - things die. An abundance of allies also eases your pain in this regard.

Bobby, Longasc:

Bobby, I tested your claim, and you are absolutely right! I had not thought of testing this since I had simply gone with the skill description. "Never Surrender!" _does_ affect minions. Thanks for pointing out this oversight - and it really strengthens the build! (Hadn't even bothered checking the Wiki notes, despite knowing how often the descriptions are bugged... silly me.) "Go For The Eyes!" does, too, and I don't even have to test it - the effect is very obvious at a cast.

Kindly, Moloch

nardhelain · Aug 17, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

After a first trial run against a throng of Jade Brotherhood, this gets a preliminary thumbs up as far as I'm concerned!

With the caveat that I have not tried this in AB, I like this better than the N/D build for general PvE use. My only complaints are the slow initial army build-up with only the one minion skill, and Leader's Zeal was not particularly useful to me.

I found I generally needed energy more during a fight while trying to raise minions and use OoU without saccing myself to death. Between skirmishes, I didn't really have an issue with energy. With all my party members and minions spread out and fighting, I didn't get max return on Leader's Zeal. I swapped it out for Signet of Lost Souls and had a much easier time maintaining my energy in combat.

As for the efficient raising of an army problem, I swapped out GftE for Shambling Horror. That gets you more minions at a faster rate with greater cumulative longevity and less energy cost. GftE does make for a nice bonus, but I'd rather have 10 minions affected by OoU than have a brief critical hit bonus on 7 minions affected by OoU.

This build is not, as you and others have said, as durable as an N/D. However, I found that I was able to consistently maintain a larger army and use OoU more often with the N/P build. I'm constantly low on energy trying to keep the N/D's enchantments up, and it's often the minion raising skills that get shortchanged as a result. In PvE play, I'd rather be the somewhat cautious master of 10 minions than the indestructible master of 6 minions.

The best part about this build, though, is "Fall Back!" Particularly when I play mm in a largely human group, I'm almost always at the back of the pack, trying to play catch-up while stopping every dozen paces to cast BotM and keep the army alive. Not only does "Fall Back!" provide an instant heal-on-the-run, it also lets the minions run faster, which means I'm not perpetually bringing up the rear. Well done!

I plan to put this build to more challenging tests than the Jade Brotherhood this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

Moloch Vein · Aug 17, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

It's nice to get some encouraging feedback!

I suspect that LZ vs SoLS has more to do with playing style than anything else. I don't really like following my targets and checking them for exact hit point levels, also, I'm normally fine with energy during the battle, but rarely possess a 25e afterwards. I guess it's my sloppy playing that's at fault.

Nevertheless, it seems that LZ should've been the variant, with SoLS as the standard. It _is_ more effective if used properly and gives you both more energy and a health boost. Leader's Comfort I think we can all agree on to be good, and "Never Surrender!" is actually even better than I first thought.

I am not too happy with the use of Shambling Horrors replacing GFTY. I think that Bone Horrors or Bone Minions works better. Shambling's recharge is just too steep - almost on par with Flesh Golem.

It should be noted that the original build was written as a semi-gimmick in that it was a way to apply tremendous damage. The Fiend fire rate is simply so much superior to the melee minions, they do the same damage, and they are ranged. OoU+GFTY while running ten Fiends is probably the highest damage output theoretically possible while using minions.

If a melee minion is used I would suggest laying low on the number of those and try to maintain as many fiends as possible.

Kindly, Moloch

nardhelain · Aug 17, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I am not too happy with the use of Shambling Horrors replacing GFTY. I think that Bone Horrors or Bone Minions works better. Shambling's recharge is just too steep - almost on par with Flesh Golem.

It should be noted that the original build was written as a semi-gimmick in that it was a way to apply tremendous damage. The Fiend fire rate is simply so much superior to the melee minions, they do the same damage, and they are ranged. OoU+GFTY while running ten Fiends is probably the highest damage output theoretically possible while using minions.

You are correct in saying that Shambling Horror has a long recharge. However, for 15e, you get a standard melee minion followed by a melee minion whose attacks cause bleeding. Two full-strength minions (unlike the lower level minions from "Animate Bone Minions") for the price of one is a wise investment any way you look at it. And anyway, I use an adept bone staff of mastery in lieu of a spear and shield - the HSR bonus makes Shambling Horror slightly more useful.

Another useful feature of Shambling Horrors doesn't show itself until you have an army of 10 healthy minions. At the conclusion of a fight, I had 10 minions with 2 shambling horrors at the bottom of the minion stack. I raised a fresh fiend, figuring that the 25e cost on a bar already down to 35 would make it the last minion I raised for awhile. Raised the fiend, minion cap killed off 1 shambling horror, which then spawned a jagged horror, which made the minion cap kill off the next shambling horror, which then also spawned a jagged horror, which made the minion cap kill off a fiend. +3 minion SR bonuses, and my depleted energy bar was suddenly completely full again. *Very* handy.

I recognize that you made this build to be something of a gimmick, and that's excellent. As posted, the build is exactly that. Under the right circumstances, you have a highly unusual build that does crazy damage. If you don't have the right circumstances, you have a party support minion master of middling effectiveness, which is fine if you like playing that sort of character. I really like the concept you've started here of a more mobile mm who is able to survive using OoU as an elite. With a little more focus on the minion aspect of minion mastery, this build has excellent potential for general play, not just situations where the gimmick is appropriate.

nardhelain · Aug 20, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Update:

I took the following skill bar through Tombs on Hard Mode. It did very well there, particularly when we all had to scamper to safety after a miscalculated pull.

[skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill][skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill][skill]Order of Undeath[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill]

I tried once with my usual Fiends and Shambling Horrors, but the ranged minions did not provide an effective shield for the rangers and the other casters. It had to be melee minions, and I needed to raise them faster than Shambling Horrors recharge would let me. Even after our Orders necro bailed on us, I was still able to keep the army up and running without overtaxing our single monk. I had to be more careful with OoU, but the build worked fine in principle. And as I said earlier, "Fall Back!" saved the day. I'm starting to prefer playing an N/P mm to the standard N/Mo for general PvE use.

Moloch Vein · Aug 21, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Well, that's a little of my point beyond my Shambling-hate. If you go with them you go with them for the flesh wall factor, and you just don't get enough of them up in any reasonable time for them to work that way.

It does sound dull and all but I think going with Fiend/Bone Horror is the best option for that situation.

Aldric · Aug 21, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I'm running a ND OoU/Mystic regen build just now which is a great deal of fun but I do like your idea for the N/P so I think i'm going to have a little potter around with the concept.

Moloch Vein · Aug 21, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

It would seem that the "golden standard" of this build should be something like:

[skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill][skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill][skill]Order of Undeath[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill]

Optional replacements: Go For The Eyes, Leader's Zeal, Animate Shambling Horror.

The main question is if this is a solid enough build to compete with the "standard" builds. I actually do believe it's superior to N/Mo in most cases and N/D in areas with high enchant threats.